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▲How you breathe is like a fingerprint that can identify younature.com
94 points by XzetaU8 3 days ago | 69 comments
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meindnoch 3 hours ago [-]
True privacy freaks use a diaphragm pacemaker hooked to a CSPRNG to securely randomize their breathing pattern in public.

Also, make sure to use a different CSPRNG for your gait randomizer, to avoid entropy starvation.

reginald78 2 hours ago [-]
Random pattern would make you stick out, particularly when everyone else in the area has identifiable breathing patterns. You'll want to set your diaphragm pacemaker to mimic the most common breathing pattern, probably based on a sample of breathing patterns from your geographical area.
tetris11 2 hours ago [-]
Some people would pay good money to have the breath profile of an athlete, in order to qualify them for only the best of careers.
m463 56 minutes ago [-]
Well, you'd get turned away at all-you-can-eat buffets.
kridsdale1 53 minutes ago [-]
I expect Champion Eaters have the breath-holding patterns of free divers.

Epiglottigeal toggling is an esophageal inefficiency.

zeristor 23 minutes ago [-]
> Epiglottigeal toggling is an esophageal inefficiency.

A tongue twister for the age!

kridsdale1 54 minutes ago [-]
Breathe without rhythm

And you won’t attract the worm

jcims 1 hours ago [-]
Just carry a chihuahua around in a backpack. Problem solved!
iwontberude 3 hours ago [-]
We need a way to get quantum entangled particles delivered to various parts of our bodies for ultimate privacy guarantees.
tbrownaw 6 hours ago [-]
> When 42 of the participants came back to the laboratory weeks, months and even two years later, to take part in another 24-hour measurement, the trained algorithm could identify them from their breath patterns. Data from periods when the participants were awake gave more accurate results than did those from sleeping periods, but when the researchers used a 100-parameter characterization of a full data set instead of one using 24 parameters, they could pick individuals out with 96.8% accuracy.

The correctly identified .968x42=40.696 of the participants.

Also any standard-ish physical activity that comes with instructions usually includes breathing in those instructions. So I would expect results to vary substantially depending on where they found the study participants.

BLKNSLVR 5 hours ago [-]
This is probably more 'voice' than breathing, but when I'm in the toilet cubicle at work I try to identify anyone who may be next door by the sound of their breathing.

I rarely get to confirm whether I'm right or wrong, but everyone sounds slightly different.

matthewwolfe 3 hours ago [-]
This is the real reason why people like remote work.
Aachen 2 hours ago [-]
This wasn't a reason for me until reading this is even a thing. I hadn't realised someone would be listening this closely... but no thoughtcrime, so I guess to each their own. What I don't know doesn't hurt me, just don't tell me such thoughts...
sunrunner 1 hours ago [-]
The only time I ever truly felt comfortable in an office environment, and now that’s been ruined.

“Mark? Is that you?”

“…Tim?”

“Yeah, any update on the report?”

“…”

“OK, no problem buddy”

chairmansteve 1 hours ago [-]
Especially in America, where public toilet privacy is not a thing.
bilekas 5 hours ago [-]
As someone with bathroom stage fright from time to time, this is terrifying.
jcims 1 hours ago [-]
Try plugging your ears. For some reason it works like magic for me to get rid of that stage fright.
veb 19 minutes ago [-]
That makes it worse! Then people can sneak up on you :(
bilekas 10 minutes ago [-]
Hands free? That’s a skill I haven’t perfected yet.
SketchySeaBeast 3 hours ago [-]
And this is why I have absolutely no reservations about going loud in the stall.
qwertox 2 hours ago [-]
You could strap a band with a strong magnet around your tummy and have an IMU sensor below your mattress. It was a project I started and sampled it at 1 Hz, multisampled with min/max/avg, but I never did anything with the data.

Looking at the real-time stream the breathing was noticeable, at 2Hz it would probably be very useful, if you have the dedication to write the tools to analyze the data.

I was thinking about doing this with a fanny pack where I put the sensor and battery pack in the fanny pack and a strong magnet at the opposite side of the strip in order to measure my breathing frequency during excercising.

jackschultz 1 hours ago [-]
I've been curious about what the best way to recording breathing rates with wearables would be. Thought was a chest strap with springs to measure tension with higher tension being air in lungs. But you're talking about a different way. How does the magnet work to get rates? I'd want something that can get rates and volumes from mouth vs nasal and also tell which vent the air in coming into the lungs from. Probably a case of how much intrusion you want vs how intricate and correct the data is.
CrimsonCape 2 hours ago [-]
I believe that I and everyone "vibrate at a certain frequency" which I define loosely as the qualitative electrical/emotional impulses that drive daily mood and physiology. Like the baseline is a smooth sine wave of calmness. Some people seem agitated all the time, and I guarantee their frequency is vibrating at a higher hertz.

Driving home from work, I get at least 2-3 "shocks" when other drivers cause close calls. I flinch, get a surge of adrenaline, and have to breathe to calm down. My sine wave is disturbed. Let's say a driver swerved close to my vehicle and I flinch and swerve away.

The next day, a driver drifts close and I instinctively get a shock, flinch, and swerve away. I didn't intend to be jumpy and nervous, but apparently my electrical system is still "echoing" from the day before.

At work, I experience anxiety, and it's a "softer" shock, but the long term result is nervousness, twitching, holding my breath in anticipation (of an attack that never comes), feelings of dread.

People talk about fixing upset emotional states and psychology, but in thinking about this, I characterize my own problems as needing my electrical system tuned-up.

How often did a farmer 1000 years ago get adrenaline dumps from fast-twitch motor neurons as he zoomed 80mph down the highway? And yet now it's literally all day. Vehicle noise at 4am, jump awake. Phone rings, jump and flinch. Driving, etc.

I don't think we look often enough at the physiology of stress from the perspective of the electrical signals generated by the nervous system. It seems like all kinds of problems come from it. To the article's point, I know my breathing has been affected from stress and tensions. I don't think i'm particularly unhealthy, so I think a lot of people could relate to feeling "not-unhealthy" but also really twitchy and disturbed from stress and tension.

In my thinking about this, fitness and health come from creating the electrical impulses in a steady, predictable way (i.e. walking, lifting) such that the electrical pathway can remember it's baseline frequency and "strengthen" the good frequency. And hopefully smooth-out the peaks and valleys of the signal interruptions caused by stresses.

dbtc 55 minutes ago [-]
I wonder if one were to use e.g. a gardening metaphor to conceptualize their perceived inner state, rather than an electricity metaphor, all things being otherwise the same, would their thoughts calm down and nervousness subside?

This is a hypothesis.

It might be true that electrical signals and magnetic frequencies define something fundamental about our physical reality, but don't underestimate utilitarian power of imagination and metaphor.

Think about trees, feel better.

57 minutes ago [-]
bradley13 6 hours ago [-]
Including asymmetry between the nostrils brings in physiological factors other than breathing, i.e. sinuses, etc..

Still, I can see it. My wife and I are probably equally fit, but she breathes much faster than I do. I also notice that I sometimes don't take a breath (or feel any need to) for several seconds, if I'm being sedentary.

meindnoch 3 hours ago [-]
>I also notice that I sometimes don't take a breath (or feel any need to) for several seconds, if I'm being sedentary.

Normal adult breathing rate is 12-20 per minute. So by the pigeonhole principle, if you don't pause breathing for several seconds when idle, then you're breathing too fast than what's considered normal. Your wife is hyperventilating, which could be a sign of stress, or a compensatory reaction to metabolic acidosis.

dpassens 1 hours ago [-]
Or you could take long breaths. 20 breaths per minute is only four seconds per breath which doesn't seem terribly long if it's both in- and out-breath.
b0a04gl 2 hours ago [-]
96.8% accuracy sounds impressive until you realise they skipped the REM phase like it's a bug report. "user unpredictable when dreaming, exclude from dataset." also love how your breath is now a biometric. imagine getting locked out of your account because you had a cold or ran up stairs. future's looking wheezy
Aachen 2 hours ago [-]
> imagine getting locked out of your account because you had a cold or ran up stairs. future's looking wheezy

This is me trying to use our fucking touchscreen stove

Landlord's kitchen, I didn't know this was even an option until moving in here or I'd have asked some questions about wet hands. I'd not have thought to ask about cold hands, like when I held a freezer product for a minute, though

I'd think it a mere annoyance if there was a physical OFF button. There is not. You can go to the cellar and trip the breaker I guess? Otherwise, you better have reasonably warm and dry fingers (it can deal with a bit of moisture and chill, but has limits similar to trying to use a phone in the rain)

Gotta say it looks sleek though, when it's free of fingerprints and other usage marks

I love technology

encom 2 hours ago [-]
Your post triggered a deep seething hatred in me of stoves with touch anything. Last place I lived (rented) was a stove with touch buttons on the stove top, which was itself a glass surface. Never mind that it beeped annoyingly on every input. Operating it with wet hands was impossible. A common situation in a kitchen. But the worst was that, if anything boiled over, the touch buttons went bananas, and usually ended up shutting everything off. Adding further annoyance and inconvenience to the situation. Because I had limited countertop space, I often wanted to use the stove as a working surface (when not in use, obviously), but it had some godforsaken detector that registered when something was put on top of (or near) the buttons (capacitive or not), and it would continuously beep until you moved it. I mean I kind of get it as a safety feature, but on the other hand I also want to override the machine, tell it to fuck off because I'm in control of the situation, and we wouldn't even have this problem in the first place, if it wasn't for this touch garbage.

Whoever designed that thing should be fed feet first into a wood chipper.

guzik 3 hours ago [-]
I might be missing something, but is there any _practical_ value in this line of research beyond academic curiosity? I've stumbled across this article a few times already, and still can't quite find the real-world application where you'd want to identify someone just by their breathing pattern (especially considering that from the article that "you need to be equipped with a nasal cannula"). Maybe I'm being dense?
etskinner 2 hours ago [-]
If you can figure out a way to do without the nasal cannula, the possibilities are huge. Maybe a good IR camera could look at the air coming out of your nose and determine the velocity. Seems like it's actually already a thing [1].

Cynically, you could use it for surveillance, similar to how they do face recognition or temperature scanning in airports.

The flip side of the coin is that it could be used for better authentication or medical purposes. Maybe your oxygen tank could realize you're breathing different than usual to warn you that you might be having a seizure, stroke, or heart attack. Or maybe we'd have "breathe to sign in" similar to FaceID

[1] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/J_EBMhrinNc

rebolek 2 hours ago [-]
"you need to be equipped with a nasal cannula" now. In few years, who knows. And then, spies.
IshKebab 3 hours ago [-]
I think it's just out of interest. There doesn't necessarily need to be a practical application.
eimrine 3 days ago [-]
I have noticed that I need so much fresh air while sleeping that it is not very comfortable for me to sleep with another person. I can not say anything about breath patterns but I suspect that O2 consumption has to be among those patterns.
stapedium 6 hours ago [-]
I suspect the fresh air is more an issue with temperature and humidity rather than oxygen content. Try a fan first.
zeristor 2 days ago [-]
Does an open window help?

A CO2 monitor might be helpful too?

dudeinjapan 5 hours ago [-]
I always have to tell my girlfriend to stop hogging all the O2.
XzetaU8 3 days ago [-]
http://archive.today/JX3go
kylehotchkiss 4 hours ago [-]
Ah good, retailers will figure out a way to work this into their camera processing software! Just like gait tracking can help ID somebody if they're wearing a mask.
pchew 4 hours ago [-]
Pebble in the shoe, pebble in the nostril.
reginald78 2 hours ago [-]
I know masks and ICP makeup were suggested as anti face recognition tools. Did anyone actually test pebble in the shoe? I would have thought clothing to hide the gait would be the answer, burkas or JNCO jeans.
tantalor 4 hours ago [-]
> custom, wearable device that records airflow through each of a person’s nostrils

Yeah, it turns out if you can strap a device to somebody then wow you can identify them.

This is interesting, but not a big surprise!

Now if they can do this from an external passive sensor like a camera or microphone, then yeah that would be a neat result.

crusty 3 hours ago [-]
I thought those millimeter wave sensors that are used in newer home automation devices to detect when people are in an observable area have enough resolution to detect the displacement of the chest during breathing, which would suggest that the tech you fear is already here, it's just not configured to record and analyze the data YET.
CraigJPerry 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah they can have enough resolution to observe your pulse:

https://ris.utwente.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/359293305/2311....

thenewwazoo 5 hours ago [-]
Neato. I bet this could be trained to identify/differentiate people based on mmWave sensors, which can reliably detect breathing and muscle movements.
macawfish 5 hours ago [-]
There are dozens if not hundreds of papers on exactly this topic :)
analog31 4 hours ago [-]
My breathing is probably influenced by what song is going through my head at any given moment.
ortusdux 6 hours ago [-]
Previous: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44262799
go_prodev 4 hours ago [-]
Hold my CPAP

Here's a fun fact, the CPAP machine lowers my Heart Rate Variability. HRV spikes when I sleep part of the night without it.

glitchc 3 hours ago [-]
Not a mystery. This is directly correlated to the CPAP's primary goal which is to ensure a steady flow of air in and out of your lungs. Without the CPAP, your heart is reacting to variations in O2 (inflow) and CO2 (outflow), speeding up and slowing down accordingly, including experiencing stress during periods where the airway is completely obstructed.
fudged71 3 hours ago [-]
I think that's backwards, higher HRV is better?
11235813213455 4 hours ago [-]
Mine is silent, I find it gross when you can hear someone's breath, and hopefully sane (I hate cigarette smokers breathe, it still smells like death)
daveguy 4 hours ago [-]
> Mine is silent, I find it gross when you can hear someone's breath...

Hate to break it to you, but you're in for an upsetting aging process.

Also, your breath already isn't silent. Your brain attenuates the expected sounds, and our ears aren't nearly as sensitive as some microphones, especially microphone arrays.

4 hours ago [-]
tinyhouse 4 hours ago [-]
Can anyone share a link that doesn't require login?
canadiantim 6 hours ago [-]
This is brilliant. Could definitely use this for a very low-cost diagnostic tool. It's like reading someone's pulse, but through their breath.
amelius 5 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately this can't be measured on a smartwatch.
genewitch 5 hours ago [-]
Amazfit claim to monitor sleep breathing, and seem fairly accurate based on my observations (n=2)
amelius 4 hours ago [-]
Ok, but I want to measure during work.
guzik 3 hours ago [-]
Are you comfortable with chest straps?
encom 10 hours ago [-]
You are now breathing manually.
cnity 6 hours ago [-]
I like to take these types of comments as an invitation to be present for a moment. Thank you!
smcin 6 hours ago [-]
but we were promised Full Self-Breathing by now!
gbnwl 6 hours ago [-]
We have it! It’s just Full Self Breathing (Supervised)
yvely 5 hours ago [-]
I just lost the game
silon42 5 hours ago [-]
Time to breathe without rhythm.
glitchc 3 hours ago [-]
The body can sense when it is deprived of oxygen and regulate breathing accordingly. See the Carotid body [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_body

pbhjpbhj 4 hours ago [-]
Way ahead of you, I swear I was born without a working internal clock.
tumsfestival 3 hours ago [-]
You ahole!